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[SIDE] Vaygr

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[SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:38 pm

-General-
Side Name: United Vaygr Clans

Ruler Name: Supreme Warlord Makaan

Favored Terrain: Plains

Description:
HISTORY: The Vaygr. A group of formerly disunited but extremely similar sides, with the main ones being the clans of Vay, Pak'ra, and ShE'va. Vay managed to form a unified clan with ShE'va, and overwhelmed the Pak'ra and in short order the rest of the Vaygr clans. To this day the Supreme Warlordship alternates between those who formerly belonged to Clans Vay and ShE'va.
BIOLOGY: Standard humans. Extremely violent standard humans. Do not get between them and something they want. Ever.
WARFARE TACTICS: The Vaygr emphasize specialization above all else. Their units are popped with a sole purpose, and they stick to it, come hell, high water, or Titanic assault.

Livery: Black background with a centered red eye and flames leaping up from the bottom. This is the combined livery of Clan Vay (red eye on black) and Clan ShE'va (flames on black).

-Units-

Infantry:
Spoiler:

Stabbers:
Warriors- 5/7/1/3 + Plains Capable Upkeep:30
Warriors are standard Vaygr attack forces. On the offensive, they HIDEOUSLY outmatch most similar units, and have a minimized upkeep allowing for larger groups of them. If you see hordes of them coming at you, and hordes are what they come in, run.

Piker:
Guardians- 7/2/7/2 + Garrison, Plains Capable Upkeep:20
Guardians guard Vaygr cities. It's what they're there for. Nothing else. They will never be promoted to the field, they will stay in their city until it burns down over their corpse.

Archer:
Bandits- 5/5/0/6 + Garrison, Ranged, Plains Capable Upkeep:30
Bandits are used for low-risk raids on enemy forces. They can run in, hit the enemy, and run out just as fast. And that's just what they're for.

Scout:
Explorer- 3/0/0/9 + Scout, Plains Capable Upkeep:30
Explorers explore. Are you getting the pattern here?

Knight:
Relentless- 10/18/4/5 + Heavy, Plains Capable Upkeep:100
Relentlesses keep on advancing through anything, against anyone. They take 90% losses, they close ranks and throw themselves at your lines again. They will gladly march through hell itself to breach your lines for their comrades. They are Relentless. And they never- ever- quit.

Special:
Spoiler:

Special A:
Warriorlord: 6/7/3/3 + Plains Capable, Rider Upkeep:40
Next rank up from your average Vaygr soldier. They're somewhat better equiped, and know more thanks to all the fights they've been in. They also have this nasty habit of riding Windriders to attack you. Suffice it to say, you won't have fun if that happens. Actually, you're more likely to die.

Special B:
Windrider: 6/3/3/5 + Flight, Mount, Plains Capable Upkeep:40
Vaygr light air transport. You really don't want a stack of warriors with these coming at you. Bad things happen when they do that.

Special C:
Battlelord: 6/5/3/5 + Dance-fighting, Leadership, Plains Capable Upkeep:80
Ah, Battlelords. Not far below outright Warlords now. Do not mess with thier stacks, as they dance-fight in the old Vaygr style of ShE'naR'vaal, as practiced and perfected mainly by Clan ShE'va.

Special D:
Low Warlord: 15/14/14/12 + Heavy, Dance-fighting, Leadership, Plains Capable Upkeep:250
A Low Warlord is precisely one step below a full Warlord in the Vaygr heirarchy. If you ever face one, run. Particularly when (as always) he is leading a veritable swarm of lesser troops, since his stack dance-fights.

Navy:
Spoiler:

Sloop: Assault Transport: 6/2/2/4/13 + Water Capable Upkeep:60
Assault transports carry troops for assaults. The Vaygr like to be obvious.

Galley: Attack Vessel: 8/8/8/5/16 + Water Capable Upkeep:90
Attack vessels attack. Big surprise.

Galleon: Deathbringer: 10/15/15/5/30 + Water Capable Upkeep:130
Deathbringers bring death, both in the form of their own weapons and the troops they carry. Again, Vaygr obviousness.

My own little notes: Yes, these are inspired by the Homeworld 2 Vaygr. Kinda. Then I made basically everything else up. And yes, all the capitals in odd places (ShE'va and suchlike...) are intentional. Vaygr speech is funny.


Last edited by doom3607 on Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  SirShadow on Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:39 pm

Oh man, Homeworld... that takes me way back.

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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:49 pm

Homeworld 2 isn't that old. I still play it, even, since it's still awesome and damn near unparraleled. Opinions on the side?

Also, I get the feeling a bunch of Relentlesses commanded by a Low Warlord would be quite terrifying.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  thetobias on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:06 am

I have one glaring problem with your side, and I havent really started nitpicking (mathamancin) yet. You have 2 knights, 2 stabbers and 3 archers, you can only have ONE of each.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:42 am

Beyond the glaring problem with the side, the Mathamancy is good with a single exception:
You've only spent 18 points on the Low Warlords. This could be a problem.

And, for this one, I'm guessing non-Royal Razz .

Okay, kind of obvious, but I always like to ask questions, just in case...


Last edited by Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Question)
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:01 am

1. Yes, non-royal.

2. Whadaya mean, only 18? Kindly explain.

3. Why can I only have one of each? That seems a little restrictive. It prevents people from having specialist units, and makes every side only cosmetically different at BEST! Come on, people!
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:24 am

Leadership=4; Dance-Fighting=4; +5 Combat=5; +5 Defense=5; 4+4+5+5=18.

One major reason to limit the number of units a side can have is that it becomes unmanageable to have 7 basic unit types. And having 2 different kinds of Knight-class Infantry is pretty overpowered. Just imagine if I'd delegated the Leadership (with Dance-Fighting) to a second Knight-class Infantry, leaving my first able to take Limited Whatevermancy along with Dollamancy. (Probably Moneymancy). Or imagine if I could have three.

The low number of units forces sides to specialize on the level of the side rather than the unit.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the "cosmetically different at BEST!" F'rinstance, Twoy and I have almost identical basic units (only difference is that he put a point into Defense on his Scout, I put that point into Move), but our Special units (and Naval, for that matter) are wildly different. His Dwarves are support units, they're designed to make money for him (I think). My Weavile are designed to croak stuff. His Minotaurs are slow Siege units, my Glaceon are light cav. Those are some pretty major differences. And these also mean that we'll use our identical basic units differently. Because he'll use his Minotaurs to take cities with strong air defenses, he can afford to send along a few of his Soldiers with them. To send my Medicham(identical to his Soldiers), I have to make my campaigns 4 times longer, and 4 times better planned.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:31 am

I still think it's ridiculous to be limited to one troop per type. I mean, we've seen STANLEY's army has more types than this. And they've shown stabbers with varied types of weapons, which seems to me to indicate different types of stabber.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:45 am

...no he doesn't o_O Gobwin Knob can only pop one type. Their "other" infantry comes from their use of natural allies, Gobwins and Hobgobwins, who both have stabber-class infantry.

Also, I believe the weapon they use doesn't really indicate anything other aesthetic interest.

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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:25 pm

... So is there any good reason why I can only have one unit per type?
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Twoy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Good reason: "it becomes unmanageable" for the GM. Game over. No GM.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  thetobias on Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:43 pm

Just what I was going to type.

Other reason, it worked fine with the amount of units we have in Kaeds Erfgame

EDIT: Also canon: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Gobwin_Knob#City_Production


Last edited by thetobias on Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:55 pm

Nihilia said it perfectly. More than one type per class lends itself too much to munchkining.

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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  thetobias on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:01 pm

Also if you want variety, there WILL be natural allies (all with their personal "agenda's" and interdiplomatic relations (no marbits with gobwins etc)) and there WILL be barbarians wich you can sweet-talk into helping you out.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:05 pm

I say if I can't create my race in a REASONABLE way, I'm not making one.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:50 pm

Well, you have a good side concept, the units have good fluff, so that would be a pity.

Also, I found a quote from Kaed, the GM of the last game, that I think applies to this situation, even if the rule he's discussing isn't in this game:
Kaed wrote:(Level 2 Cities gain the the ability to build the unit choice you chose not to build during Level 1, and they produce faster. Alternatively, if you picked SU C during Level 1, you may pick another single C-type unit instead of the A/B choice. The reverse is not really applicable because managing 4 different weaker Special Unit types in one capital is difficult and gives too broad a range of possible Specials.)
This is the munchkining point Sir Shadow and I have been making--duplicate units yield way too many Special options, especially duplicate Knight-class Infantry. If 4 weaker Special units are too much to manage (compared to 2), how hard are 7 basic units going to be (compared to 4)? If 4 A/B Specials open up too many options for specials, 2 Knight class Infantry will also.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:59 pm

My classes with multiple units in them don't have specials. You might try to remember that before mentioning a specials point.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:07 pm

Yeah, well, the point is this: If one player can create multiple Knight-class units, why can't the others?

[crickets--there's not really any good reason why one person should be given the advantage of superior variety at the outset, for no cost]

What stops the other players from giving those units Specials, given that the rules explicitly allow them to?

[crickets]

What stops anyone from duplicating their A/B units? C-units? All are weaker than a Knight. In fact, what stops a player, once someone else has duplicated a Knight, from making 4 A/B units?--Exactly what Kaed said would make things unmanageable.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:12 pm

doom3607 wrote:I say if I can't create my race in a REASONABLE way, I'm not making one.
Then don't make one. If you can't act in a reasonable way, make your side in adherence to the rules, and accept the explanations given for them, then we probably don't want you in the game. I'd probably be more willing to work with you if you didn't sound like some whiny 12 y/o, but the rules stand as they are.

All of your infantry might not have specials, but all the different ones have different stats. We feel that that just gives too many options, does not follow canon, and unnecessarily burdens the game.

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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:46 pm

...Edited. And if you aren't willing to work with someone because they sound irritated, you maybe shouldn't be running this sort of game.
Because people do have problems with the rules sometimes. So learn to deal with it.

Also fixed the Low Warlords. They now have 3 more attack and defence, making them rather more painful than before.
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:24 pm

Wow.

*Mental Note: Make extensive preparations before fighting Low Warlords.*

And, people get a little defensive of rules sometimes... I've been guilty of this in some of my games, actually. (In fact, I've found thetobias surprisingly flexible with his rules.)
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:38 pm

I understand people are going to have problems the rules, hell, I've had problems with the rules. But replying rudely and whining aren't going to change it. If you want something to change I'd go to the Rules Discussion board and calmly write out what you want changed and how it will benefit the game as a whole.

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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:20 pm

Nihila wrote:Wow.
*Mental Note: Make extensive preparations before fighting Low Warlords.*

It's worse than you think- I plan on deploying them only leading stacks consisting of them and seven Relentlesses. Sound scary? That's the point. *cue evil laugh*
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  doom3607 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:59 pm

Query: Can the Vaygr start off way far away from everyone? One of the bits I liked most about them in HW2 is that they came from the "Vaygr Reaches", which I think sounds a little awesome. As such, I'd like to be able to make same in this game...
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Re: [SIDE] Vaygr

Post  thetobias on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:37 am

The Titans work in mysterious ways...
soooo maybe?
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