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Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is where players can gather to suggest some rules, and if enough of us start jabbering, maybe something will happen.

My current suggestion:
Reduce the Combat multiplier range from [.5, 1.5] to [.75, 1.25]. This is just to ensure a little more carnage ensues on both sides. Twisted Evil Carnage=good!...Wait...

Well, it'll make battles dependent on luck, but not so dependent that a 2-Attack unit can croak a 4-Defense unit.

(2*1.5=3; 4*.5=2; 3>2)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:21 am

Test of burrowing: Can one of the Titans run this battle for me?

I have 7 stacks of 8 Fauns and 1 stack with 7 Fauns and a level 3 warlord in the courtyard of my level 5 capital. My capital is high mountains.

Archer: Faun: 5-9-0-0(2), Mountain Capable, Ranged, 30(40)
Warlord - (10/6/6/5/leadership, rider, Mountain Capable.

The enemy burrows up into my courtyard with:

8 Giant Worms and a Level 3 Warlord.

Giant Worm 15/17/10/13 plains capable, burrow, sonic breath (already added in), range, mount, heavy, siege(from breath) upkeep 250
Warlord - (10/6/6/5/leadership, rider, Plains Capable.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:24 am

Okay, I'm going to make three points about burrowing, and one about ambushes:
A) Burrowing already allows surprise attacks (not ambushes) on field units, which is powerful in its own right.
B) Burrowing eliminates most hex penalties already, also powerful in its own right.
C) Burrowed units already cannot be seen, which is unbelievably powerful, or revealed by any means currently known to the players.
D) Most units can only make an ambush by taking a huge risk--hiding. If no enemy stacks cross through the hex, or if a massive enemy force crosses the hex, easily crushing the would-be-ambushers, the ambush fails. Burrowing involves no such risk.
These should be worth 4 points to anyone. Adding an ambush bonus into dungeons on top of this makes it worth at least 6, putting it into the realm of a High-Level Special, and possibly as much as 8--it effectively has Limited Foolamancy and (most of) Flight, as well as the equivalent of some of Siege (the ability to bypass walls). So maybe even 10. Except even Siege units can get stopped by a wall, so maybe 12. It's normally a powerful Special--powerful but beatable. Giving it the ability to swiftly and easily take a city will make it almost unbeatable in normal circumstances.

With these in mind, may I request that the rules on burrowing be changed, or at least the ambush bonus for coming into a city? Failing this, may I post a revised version of Snowpoint, with several Burrowing Mounts and many Riders to maximize the damage potential, to carefully and empirically demonstrate exactly how broken Burrowing can become?

Two more points, less mechanical and more common sense/historical:
1)Units deployed in a dungeon are only going to be deployed there to protect the city. They should be ready for a burrowing attack, since that's the only way to enter the dungeon. Burrowing units wouldn't know what kind of a defense to expect, so the defenders would be able to surprise them as the burrowers re-oriented themselves.
2) Historically, the practice of undermining a wall has been noisy and obvious. It functioned basically as a siege attack.

One suggestion for a mechanic would be that neither side should get an ambush bonus--the defenders will be prepared by the rather obvious noise of an entire stack carving through solid rock, but both sides will have a quick moment of disorientation before engaging, eliminating both ambush bonuses.

Or maybe cities can be assumed to be fortified against burrowers, so burrowers can't enter enemy cities without a dungeon and tunnel zone.

Either way would balance burrowing.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  doom3607 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:12 am

Makes sense to me. I think I'd hear a stack or more of enemy troops trying to bore through a fricking mountain to get at me. Or even normal ground.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:41 am

Nihila wrote:1)Units deployed in a dungeon are only going to be deployed there to protect the city. They should be ready for a burrowing attack, since that's the only way to enter the dungeon. Burrowing units wouldn't know what kind of a defense to expect, so the defenders would be able to surprise them as the burrowers re-oriented themselves.
Captured enemy units and beasts you are trying to tame would be kept in the dungeon. Units placed there would be there in case of an escape.
Historically, the practice of undermining a wall has been noisy and obvious. It functioned basically as a siege attack.
That is because, historically, the technology used to do so was loud and noisy. If we're talking about a creature that spits acid at stuff in its way until it's gone, there isn't going to be much noise involved, so they wouldn't know they were coming unless they had a lookamancer.
Or maybe cities can be assumed to be fortified against burrowers, so burrowers can't enter enemy cities without a dungeon and tunnel zone.
All cities have tunnel zones. The "dungeon" is the "garrison" of the tunnel zone.

I'm not going comment on the rules since Tobias is the one who ultimately decides what they are. I still suggest Burrower's speed be halved when burrowing. Also, there are only 3 types of units that can have burrowing, each of them with high upkeep costs.

If you're at the point in the game where 7 giant worms are coming at you, and all you have are 7 fauns and a warlord to defend, you're doing something wrong. Hire a dirtamancer from the magical kingdom to place traps in your tunnel zones ffs.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:53 am

All cities have tunnel zones. The "dungeon" is the "garrison" of the tunnel zone.

Er... What?
Rules New Erf wrote:Optional: (only in mountain hexes) dungeon and tunnels zone
That is because, historically, the technology used to do so was loud and noisy. If we're talking about a creature that spits acid at stuff in its way until it's gone, there isn't going to be much noise involved, so they wouldn't know they were coming unless they had a lookamancer.
There's the detail that the byproducts of an acidic reaction will make noise (usually fizzling), as gases are (often) released. Depending on the kind of dirt/rock and the kind of acid, of course.

Or if the creature is chewing its way through the earth, chewing through the solid rock tiles that probably make up the floor of a dungeon or courtyard? Going to be a little obvious.

If you're at the point in the game where 7 giant worms are coming at you, and all you have are 7 fauns and a warlord to defend, you're doing something wrong. Hire a dirtamancer from the magical kingdom to place traps in your tunnel zones ffs.
Twoy had 7 stacks of 8 faun archers as well as the led stack.

And I'd rather not have a warplan rely on the MK--if that's my only defense against a burrowing attack, I'm clearly doing something wrong. Having only one option to counter a tactic means that eliminating that option becomes less difficult. What if my adversary launches a burrowing strike the turn before I build my MK portal? I'd like that not to be "game over."

Or, what if I can't hire an MK caster because they don't want to travel through my Tundra territory? Still screwed.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:58 am

SirShadow wrote:If you're at the point in the game where 7 giant worms are coming at you, and all you have are 7 fauns and a warlord to defend, you're doing something wrong. Hire a dirtamancer from the magical kingdom to place traps in your tunnel zones ffs.
My example above is 8 stacks of archers--63 archers and a warlord.

I would also be curious to see the result of 8 Giant Worms and a Level 3 Warlord vs. 8 Dwagons and a Level 3 warlord with the 8 Dwagons being in a High Mountain level 5 city.

D: Dragon: 15/(9+8 vs Flying), (18+8 vs Ground)/6/20, Heavy, Mountain Capable, Fast, Fire Breath, Flight, Ranged, Mount, Battlecrap, Toxin, Upkeep 250.

The Worms destroy my dwagons, but that's okay because I have another stack of dwagons just a few hexes away. Unfortunately, my dwagons can't attack the worms because they burrowed underground after destroying my capital. The next turn they destroy my next city and then hide underground again. Rinse and repeat until Narnia is gone. Sorry, but I think burrowing cannot be beat.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:40 am

I recall that in Ehbobo's and Kaed's games, burrowing only allowed Heavy units to enter Tunnels. Maybe we should reduce its cost to that of a simple special, and reintroduce tunnel entry as an effect of burrowing, and also allow stacks with burrowers and a Warlord to construct a Tunnel anywhere--an underground road system of sorts.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:58 am

With the faun archers, only the first stack would be ambushed.

As far as the dragons, Assuming the a 1 for random number (the midpoint), both units would be decimated, although a few of the worms would have a higher chance of living. Then I'd have to put the toxin in, which should kill off the rest.

This being said, I do agree that units in a dungeon hex should not be ambushed. The units on regular ground are expecting to see the enemy coming, but being underground you'd expect them come through the mountains to you.

On a side note, if you have a city with a dungeon next to a mine, does that mean there are tunnels leading out of the city?

In other words, light units enter the tunnels in the mines next to a city, then can attack the dungeon zone of the city, or are the dungeons of cities always assumed to be blocked off unless otherwise stated?

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:13 am

HerbieRai wrote:With the faun archers, only the first stack would be ambushed.
What if the worms attacked as 8 stacks of 1 worm each against 8 stacks of archers?
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:38 am

Twoy, the Wurms wouldn't have quite enough attack to croak every stack of Archers, and they'd take some serious retaliation.

HerbieRai, you're side's the one with the most burrowers, what do you think of my earlier proposition about changing it?
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:09 am

I didn't factor that ambush doubles my defense as well when doing the the dragon calculations. The combat would only kill 2 and wound the third, but the toxin would still finish the job. That toxin is lethal, anything attacking those would die, whether the dragons croak or not.

I have no problem with those rules, but I'm not the one you have to convince. I think there should be some way of ambushing units above ground (did happen in comic), although cities should take that ability down.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Iylzara on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:00 am

Couldn't it simply be that units that step on to a tile with a burrowed unit is ambushed instead?
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:05 am

Couldn't it simply be that units that step on to a tile with a burrowed unit is ambushed instead?
Would this be different than Limited Foolamancy, besides the fact that there would be no warning? I am strongly in favor of either nerfing Burrowing and making it a simple special or leaving it as is but doubling or tripling the cost for balance. As things stand, Burrowing is more powerful than Limited Foolamancy, and that's a problem.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Iylzara on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:18 am

Nihila wrote:
Couldn't it simply be that units that step on to a tile with a burrowed unit is ambushed instead?
Would this be different than Limited Foolamancy, besides the fact that there would be no warning? I am strongly in favor of either nerfing Burrowing and making it a simple special or leaving it as is but doubling or tripling the cost for balance. As things stand, Burrowing is more powerful than Limited Foolamancy, and that's a problem.

Doesn't limited foolamancy have the capacity to effect other units as well?
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:21 am

Yes, but so does burrowing. The Mount special, for instance.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Iylzara on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:24 am

Nihila wrote:Yes, but so does burrowing. The Mount special, for instance.

Perhaps make burrowing and mount exclusive then? So that burrowing units are essentially on their own?

They're still powerful, but at least its tactically inhibiting.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:51 am

Well, according to canon (as far as I am aware), all cities have 4 zones. Outer Walls, Airspace, Garrison, and Tunnel. within those zones are sub-zones. Tower is the subzone of airspace, courtyard is subzone of garrison, and dungeon is the subzone of tunnel. Cities can have additional special zones depending on their location and how they're built.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:57 am

In canon, as far as we are aware, at least one city has four zones: Garrison, Airspace, Tunnel, Outer Walls, one of which (Garrison) has 3 sub-zones: Dungeon, which borders the Tunnels, Courtyard, which borders the Outer Walls, and Tower, which borders Airspace. There is also at least one city (Spacerock) which does not have Tunnels at all.

In our ruleset, only cities on Mountains may have either a Dungeon or a Tunnel zone, and not all of them have to have those zones.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:16 pm

It stated that spacerock was rather unique in that aspect, though. and I'm against only cities on mountains having tunnel/dungeon zones.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  thetobias on Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:41 pm

Ok let's do a Word of the Titans on this one:

1) burrowing into a dungeon with units in it means the burrowers are ambushed.
2) surprise = ambush
3) yes, burrowers allow for more effective ambush but they spent points on it. I agree that it should be nerfed, a burrowing mount will now no longer be able to carry its riders through the earth (a burrowing heavy mount will however be able to carry riders through tunnels)
4) a city which controls one mine will be considered to have a tunnel zone (gobwin knob is a prime example), a dungeon zone will be anti-burrowing protection available for all hex types. burrowing units can always try to attack the garrison by burrowing, but risk being surprised.
5) something I just thought of, city control flips on 2/3 ownership of the following zones: dungeon, garrison, tower.

Questions?

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:32 am

thetobias wrote:Ok let's do a Word of the Titans on this one:

1) burrowing into a dungeon with units in it means the burrowers are ambushed.
2) surprise = ambush
3) yes, burrowers allow for more effective ambush but they spent points on it. I agree that it should be nerfed, a burrowing mount will now no longer be able to carry its riders through the earth (a burrowing heavy mount will however be able to carry riders through tunnels)
4) a city which controls one mine will be considered to have a tunnel zone (gobwin knob is a prime example), a dungeon zone will be anti-burrowing protection available for all hex types. burrowing units can always try to attack the garrison by burrowing, but risk being surprised.
5) something I just thought of, city control flips on 2/3 ownership of the following zones: dungeon, garrison, tower.
Questions?
I think these changes make it so that a powerful burrowing stack will not be able to conquer the whole world.

In reference to point 5:
Garrison sub-zones are dungeon, courtyard, tower. There's a nice graphic on the wiki: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/City_Zones .

Parson's Klog #11 http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_98a says that a city falls when all the units in the garrison are croaked or captured.

That sounds to me like 3/3 control is necessary to take a city.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:10 pm

I agree that you need to take all zones: Tower, Garrison, dungeon, walls before a city is captured by the enemy.

On another note, Are we going to have a speed turn method for the first 10 to 30 turns? Basically, I think we need a temporary "speed turns" method until we actually have empires to control.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:38 pm

HerbieRai wrote:I agree that you need to take all zones: Tower, Garrison, dungeon, walls before a city is captured by the enemy.
The klog does not say anything about taking the walls. Just the Tower, Courtyard and Dungeon. You have three ways to approach a city, through the walls, through tunnels or through the air.

Outer Walls -- Needed to be breached by Siege Units to be passable by ground Units.
Tunnels -- Could only be entered by light or tunnel-capable Units.
Airspace -- Could only be entered by flying Units.
Garrison:
Tower -- Could only be attacked from Airspace or another Garrison Zone.
Dungeon -- Could only be attacked from Tunnels or another Garrison Zone.
Courtyard -- Could only be attacked from Outer Walls or another Garrison Zone.
From: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Gobwin_Knob_(city)#Layout
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Twoy on Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:47 am

Courtiers are special units who like warlords and casters can issue build orders and manage cities. A city with a courtier governing it gets a bonus to production equal to the bonus a warlord of the same level would give.

What bonus does a courtier or warlord give when managing cities?


Last edited by Twoy on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  thetobias on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:10 am

I actually noticed that yesterday and have a slight problem with that, it seems that Kaed never mentioned this. If I read over it could someone tell me how much percent the increase is?

Otherwise I would like set the percentage to 10%/level, maxing at 100% (only 1 manager per city allowed)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

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