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Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:59 pm

This is where players can gather to suggest some rules, and if enough of us start jabbering, maybe something will happen.

My current suggestion:
Reduce the Combat multiplier range from [.5, 1.5] to [.75, 1.25]. This is just to ensure a little more carnage ensues on both sides. Twisted Evil Carnage=good!...Wait...

Well, it'll make battles dependent on luck, but not so dependent that a 2-Attack unit can croak a 4-Defense unit.

(2*1.5=3; 4*.5=2; 3>2)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Squeejee on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:53 pm

I still stand by my suggestions for more special abilities.

Here they are
Spoiler:

Simple Ability: Superior Drilling
This unit has been drilled to death by their commander - or rather, this commander drills his units to death!
A unit with superior drilling is better at working together with his comrades. The unit's stack size bonus increases by one step, and if the stack size is 8, the stack bonus becomes a 2x modifier. This only affects stacks where every unit has the SD ability.

Balance Notes

This ability grants units in stacks of 8 a x2 bonus to their combat score, but only if every unit in the stack has the SD ability. This makes it infeasible for anything other than basic infantry or AB Specials to take the ability, but makes them slightly more capable than they would be putting those 2 points into the Combat stat. Because they don't gain much benefit from being in non-SD groups, however, it makes the unit less flexible overall, and requires leaders commanding the unit to have this (or it's complex-type cousin) in order to lead them effectively.


Complex Ability: Masterful Drilling (4 points)
These guys are REALLY good at mining - oh, wait...
A unit with this ability has grown to trust its comrades in a way that few other Erfworld units have. A Masterful Drilling unit gains the same benefit as a Superior Drilling unit, with an addition. If a stack consists entirely of identical units with the Masterful Drilling ability, the unit gains a leadership bonus equal to the level of its highest level member and counts as a lead stack. If a commander-type unit (any unit with a leadership score) obtains this ability, he gains the ability to grant the benefit of Superior Drilling to any stack he leads, as long as he leads it.

Balance Notes

This ability grants units in stacks of 8 a x2 bonus to their combat score, as well as the ability to act as a lead stack without having a Warlord. Because it is a complex ability, however, only Knight-type units or Special C / D units could take it, making a full stack of MD units an expensive proposition to field - worth it in certain situations, but in others putting the 4 points into something else would have been more worthwhile.

If a commander has this ability, he grants the SD benefit to his stack. In high-combat stacks, this basically acts as a slightly better form of dance-fighting - but in weaker stacks, dance-fighting would have been a better choice. Outfitting a number of the army's commanders with this ability makes it a tactical imperative to group certain commanders with certain unit types, further reducing the flexibility of an army that fields this ability in bulk, but being worth it in a direct confrontation - rather like the specialized training it is meant to reflect.


Simple Ability: Marine
Semper Fi.
This unit is specialized in something. Specifically, taking names and kicking boop! When this unit attacks from a naval unit's cargo bay, it gains a 50% combat bonus as if fighting on favored terrain. This unit can also contribute to a naval battle by attacking the troops that enemy ships in the engaged stack are transporting. If the naval unit isn't transporting any units, they can target naval unit itself - treat this attack as if the targeted naval unit is being attacked but cannot retaliate, such as from being out of range.

This attack can only be made against enemy naval units in the same hex as the Marines attempting to engage it, and only if the unit used to transport the marines engages the stack that contains the target naval unit for a minimum of one combat round. If a lead stack including the marines' transport ends combat without taking the marines with it, the marines are left to fight it out on the ship they were dropped off on. There is no reason marines can't perform this attack off of a flying mount, but they will not gain their favored terrain bonus when doing so.

If a stack of Marines reduces a target naval vessel to 50% of its HP or less, they cause that vessel to turn - but one of the Marine units is "disbanded" in the process, used to crew the new ship. Ships acquired in this fashion inherit their original faction's base stats, but have their XP total changed to matched the Marine expended to crew the ship. If this causes the ship to move up or down a level, recalculate all stat values accordingly. The ship captured retains any damage that it sustained while being captured, and will join that stack that the Marines' transport vessel belonged to until combat is over, at which point it may re-stack like any other unit.

Balance Notes

This ability is meant for factions that want a unit whose specialty is maritime warfare and ruling the oceans, something that I don't really see in any of the current abilities. It grants a terrain capability bonus under very limited circumstances, but makes up the difference in granting limited Turnamancy to the unit. The balancing factor is that the unit has to fight whatever the target ship is transporting, so it is only a guaranteed capture against unguarded ships - and even then, taking down a ship with Marines requires that either the Marines be elite (read: expensive) or in bulk (read: still expensive) to have a chance of success - but the reward is a naval unit in exchange for one of your land units, so it's worthwhile if you deploy your naval forces around the strategy. Also, if you capture a ship that's in a hex filled with more enemy ships, you're most likely going to be engaged and destroyed before you can make it out of the hex on your new (1/2 hp or less) boat.


Simple Ability: Aeronaut
He's a strange one, enjoys jumping off of Dwagons' backs and onto his enemies...
A unit with this ability gains a +50% terrain bonus when fighting from any mount with the flying ability. If bought with the "Riding" ability for a unit's base stats, reduce the cost of the abilities by one - so you get both for 3 points. Naturally, this ability is worthless on a Heavy unit.

Balance Notes

This one is for factions who want to rule the skies, which short of taking "flight" for every unit on your list would be difficult. Like "Marine," this ability is balanced by the fact that it is an expensive proposition for your main force, but can be worthwhile on elite units (paired with flying units). This ability paired with riding is 1 point more expensive than just taking flying because, if you deploy your force around it, you will wind up with full stacks of 8 fliers + 8 riders. They have less versatility than stacks of 8 fliers working together with stacks of 8 ground units, but will be powerful enough (via the huge HP boon such a force would have) to overcome that disadvantage in most situations.

Aeronaut / Rider units are individually weaker than Marine units, but have more versatility. Both unit types have less versatility than standard [terrain] capable units, except for situations that favor them - which is true in reverse as well.


Complex Ability: Combat Medic (4 points)
I'm not a Healomancer, but I know how a bandage works.
This unit has received first-aid training, gaining access to a very limited form of Healomancy. When this unit's stack ends a combat - either by defeating all enemy units, the enemy unit's commander calling a retreat, or this unit's commander doing the same - every casualty the Combat Medic's stack suffered has a 10% chance of reviving, fully healed, at the start of the next turn. This number is rolled in secret by the Titans, and a Combat Medic can only use this ability once per turn.

Balance Notes

Preventing 1 / 10 units in your charge from dying sounds like a lot, but considering Combat Medic units would only get to use this ability after battles they survive balances its usefulness considerably. As a complex special, only certain unit types would be able to take it - but it would really pay off grouped into your most expensive unit stacks. They only suffer minor casualties when used correctly, but 10% of those casualties can be averted by a weaker medic in the stack, following it around. The trade-off is reduced combat effectiveness compared to having an 8th member of the more powerful unit type in the stack.


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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:07 pm

Also, I have four more suggestions now:
Two are cross-posted from the Erfworld forums:
1) Dollamancy Spell:
Create Tchoktche--Create (Caster Level) Tchoktches. 60 Juice per Tchoktche, 12 Hits, 6 Attack, 3 Defense, 11 Move, Mount, Heavy, Dollamancy Golem, Burrowing, 100 upkeep

(Tchoktches are distinct from Scarecrows and Dolls and Cloth Golems in a way Molls aren't. Molls seem to be similar to Dolls(or the generic "Cloth Golem"), while Tchokches are made of Glass, and are Heavy Tunnel-Capable Mounts, unlike the rest of the Cloth Golem branch.)

2) Scrolls:
"Casters (not units with Limited Casting Abilities) can create scrolls by expending 2* the Juice cost of the Spell that is put into the Scroll in Juice, as well as expending the Juice cost of the Spell in Schmuckers. So, a Spell with a normal Juice cost of 30 would cost 60 Juice and 30 Schmuckers to create. The Schmuckers can be drawn from a city's treasury or the purse of any unit in the Caster's hex, but the Schmuckers must be in the hex to be used to create the Scroll."

(Just because thetobias said that we could have Scrolls but I haven't seen any rules for them. The 2* Juice cost is an investment--it allows the caster to cast the Scroll(s) and all of their Juice in 1 turn. The Schmuckers cost is to make it so that ordering Casters to use all Juice on Scrolls costs the side (75 Schmuckers per Caster per turn). Taken together, they explain why Overlords and Rulers don't just order their Casters to spend all "spare time" to make Juice--it's inefficient and expensive.)

3) Dollamancy Spell:
LFN/Tankeroo: Battle Bear w/ the Mount Special instead of Siege--20 Hits, 14 Attack, 8 Defense, 2 Move, Heavy, Mount, Dollamancy Golem, 150 upkeep, all restrictions apply.

(LFN's and Tankeroo's are also impossible under the current rules, as no Dollamancy mounts exist.)

4) Add "Mount" to the Hard Rock Golem, as Sizemore was seen riding a Hard Rock Golem.

(Just increasing the amount of canon material in the game.)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Squeejee on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:34 pm

Hmm, and what about complex scrolls bought from the Magic Kingdom? These are rough, because the only prices we have to go on are from the very beginning, but here I go...

For scrolls bought from NPC sources, a price modifier of 1.75x the normal Schmucker cost of the scroll is applied. If the scroll contains tricaster magic, an additional x1000 modifier is added to the base cost of the scroll. Tricaster scrolls require either the appropriate linkup to cast, or a spellcaster that has the ability to cast all the magic forms required, as per the rules for caster with the ability to cast outside their discipline. Sides without an appropriate caster to work with a scroll they have acquired can usually hire a barbarian caster from the Magic Kingdom for 5000 Schmuckers per level of the spell to cast it - but as they are not fully-fledged mercenaries under your command, they will not perform any other actions and will immediately flee/turn if their stack is engaged by hostile forces. Purchasing a tricaster link to cast the scroll runs 150,000 Schmuckers, reflecting the added costs of a group of Thinkamancers who will unravel the link very carefully after the spell is cast - the Magic Kingdom's health plan is very generous, blame the Hippiemancers.

Casters with the ability to cast outside their discipline may or may not be available in the Magic Kingdom for hire, but their services are much more expensive than hiring a single caster mercenary because of simple supply-and-demand. As such, they will have to be haggled with as NPCs, but will usually not like to undercut the Kingdom's prices or risk being ostracized for it.

It is important to note that the going scroll-casting rates of the Magic Kingdom are not equivalent to hiring caster barbarians as mercenaries - those deals are made personally, and are usually much more long-term than a one-time visit from a bunch of casters to make your new magic work.

EXAMPLE: The "Summon Perfect Warlord" spell, a Findamancy/Lookamancy type, was determined by the Titans to run 200 Juice for a casting, thus the scroll for it cost ((200*1000)*1.75) = 350,000 Schmuckers. Wanda was able to cast it by virtue of being in the 1% of casters with the ability to cast from any school of magic.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:26 pm

For Tankeroos and Tchoktches, I suggest giving dollamancers the ability to create units of a certain amount of points--somewhat like cities--in order to reflect the vast amount of doll creatures shown in the comic. That way we don't have to quibble about the stats of these specific creatures and each side can have their own "custom" dolls.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:25 am

For Tankeroos and Tchoktches, I suggest giving dollamancers the ability to create units of a certain amount of points--somewhat like cities--in order to reflect the vast amount of doll creatures shown in the comic. That way we don't have to quibble about the stats of these specific creatures and each side can have their own "custom" dolls.
You know, this is a much better idea. I'll work on a quick system today, hope to have it up for both Dolla- and Dirta- mancers by tonight.

Okay, my suggestions for all Golems. H-A-D-M:
Weak Golem: 3-3-1-2, 4 points to spend, 20 upkeep, cost 10 Juice to create. Scarecrows. Closest Dirtamancy Golem is Crap Golem, which are slightly stronger but with higher upkeep.
Small Golem: 5-3-2-3, 4 points to spend, 40 upkeep, cost 30 Juice to create. Cloth Golems. No Dirtamancy Golem with these stats currently exists.
Medium Golem: 5-5-3-3, 6 points to spend, 60 upkeep, cost 45 Juice to create. Dolls and Soft Rock Golems.
Large Golem: 12-8-6-3, 6 points to spend, 100 upkeep, cost 60 Juice to create. Acid Rock and Hard Rock Golems. No Dollamancy Golem with these stats currently exists.
Huge Golem: 14-10-6-2, 12 points to spend, 150 upkeep, cost 75 Juice to create. Battle Bears. Closest Dirtamancy Golem is Metal Golem, which are slightly stronger but with higher upkeep.

Random Stuff:
All Dirtamancy Golems can buy Burrowing for half price, as a Simple Special. All Golems can buy Simple Specials, but no others. Restrictions may apply with the Specials chosen. For instance, an Acid Rock Golem with the special "Toxin" may be only createable in a Swamp hex, to infuse to Rock with the noxious fumes. Of course, the Titans can veto a Special for certain Golems, based on how ridiculous/justified it is. All Golems will start with their side's Terrain Capability.

Does this look good?


Last edited by Nihila on Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Got a simple system done!)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  thetobias on Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:19 am

The Titans (well, at least this one) approve.

One note though. You can only make one set of these per side (you will be prompted to make them if you get a dolla- or dirtamancer.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:32 am

thetobias wrote:You can only make one set of these per side (you will be prompted to make them if you get a dolla- or dirtamancer.
I second this completely.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:30 pm

Tunneling questions:
1) can non burrowing units follow after a burrower has gone through and created a tunnel?

2) can you build a road through a tunnel to speed up travel?

3) can you collapse a tunnel, and if so what are the requirements to do so?

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:18 pm

Looking at the titan rules, they could use a little more expanding.

I think a titan's hits should be determined by its divine rank. If both attack and hits are tied to power, it might be too strong of a score and one that puts a lot of points into it will be much stronger than another of equal divine rank that didn't.

Also, the rules for how a side effects a titan's rank is a little unclear. It may just be me, but I think they need to be explained better.

And vassals could be expanded on a tad.

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Question/Suggestion Compilation

Post  Nihila on Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:22 pm

Because I don't really like having stuff scattered around, I'm compiling a list of unanswered questions/suggestions:

Multiple Posters:
1) Scroll rules, though support for these has been stated.

Squeejee's:
1) Suggestions for Superior Drilling, Masterful Drilling, Marine, and Aeronaut reiterated, with justification.

HerbieRai's:
1) Can non-burrowing units follow after a burrower has gone through and created a tunnel?
2) Can you build a road through a tunnel to speed up travel
3) Can you collapse a tunnel, and if so what are the requirements to do so?

Sir Shadow's:
1) Suggestion that Titanic Hits be determined by DR, to reduce the power of Power.
2) Expand on how sides affect Titans' ranks.
3) Vassals?

Nihila's:
1) Can the Random number range be reduced from [.5, 1.5] to [.75, 1.25]?
2) Can burrowing units move under city hexes and attack from underground?
---2a. If so, can anti-burrowing traps be set, much like air defenses?
3) If a unit buys a Special increasing combat and Toxin, is the Toxin damage calculated based off of modified Combat or base Combat? For instance, my Articuno have a base Combat of 10 and a modified Combat (with their Ice/Fire Breath) of 18. Is the Toxin damage 5 or 9?
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  thetobias on Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:52 pm

You keep giving me reasons to show favoritism don't you Nihila? Razz so... what type of caster do you want for your first warlord?

Ok, it's gonna be easy to answer your questions now.

Multiple Posters
- I still have to do that, but I had something to do and now its 10 before 2.

Squeejee
- You know, I still don't like it, but I'm willing to put it to a vote and will agree with the majority, deal?

HerbieRai
- No, they can however enter a tunnel created by a mine or a dirtamancer/unit with limited dirtamancy and tunneling/ If the tunnels aren't supported they collapse after the burrower passed through.
- Interesting... although tunnels will already act like plains, no matter where they are created.
- Yes, but I have to figure out requirements, probably putting a dirtamancer or limited dirtamancy special unit in it and giving the collapse command.

Sir Shadow
- Hm.. Actually you have a point, so it will probably be: Hits=5DR, Attack=10PO, Defense=10PR, Move=10PA
- I don't really see the difficulty.. Well.. Okay, now that I reread it. Actually it means the following. For the Xth city a side builds the increase in DR for its titan equals City level/X
- If anyone has a suggestion for this I'm willing to hear it, but for now I don't really know how to improve it/

Nihila
- Hm.. Okay, sounds fair. It wont be changed in the old spread though. I'm building a new spread from scratch to accomodate for several other things that have come up.
- They could use it to bypass the walls, but would either enter the dungeon zone which dirtamancer can trap or the garrison zone where the whole city garrison is waiting for them.
-Poison takes the total attack against an enemy into account so battlecwap against a land unit would increase the poison damage done.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:47 pm

I may have to change the worm then. The empire is based off a giant network of underground caves, and I need a method of creating them if i don't have a dirtamancer. I will say there is no "spell" that tunnels, so unless you make some modifications, a dirtamancer can't necessarily tunnel.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:28 pm

Mmm... I think if a creature had burrow and builder it should be able to create something like reinforced tunnels. They could act like roads below ground that could only be entered and exited at certain "access" points. They attach directly to a city's dungeon zone. Creatures with burrowing or heavy could collapse the tunnels from hexes above, or creatures with burrow could create new entrances. Of course, they'd have to know the tunnels were there (or in the case of burrowing creatures maybe just "bump" into them) or else we'd have heavies just stomping around everywhere.

This could be an interesting way to create a third battle space outside of a city. Underground, Land-level, Air.

Also, on a side-note, you know how high level cities can have "special" zones? This could potentially create more incentive for special dungeon zones.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:38 am

I'm not really sure about having burrowing units make surprise attacks on cities... I mean, with fliers, there's a chance of detecting them. Burrowing units, not really.

EDIT: Okay, well maybe if Burrowing units can't see what's in the Garrison/Dungeon before entering, so they have to fight the strongest stack first rather than choosing targets. That would make sense, the Outer Walls block the view of the Courtyard.


Last edited by Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : More Thoughts)
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:52 am

Um... this exact thing happened in comic. Remember how the marbits were making a sneak attack burrowing through into the dungeon space?

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:07 am

Yes, but that took a turn to do and the GK'ers knew about their entry and their locations.

That strikes me as a bit much of a penalty, but if other people like it, I'm okay with it.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:48 am

That would also mean that if there are ambush rules, the tunnelers are always ambushed when attacking.

What I was more thinking about was intercity connections. My faction isn't a "mountain" side, but we prefer the mountains, and I was planning on creating a tunnel network like most sides make road networks.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:14 am

Mining in Mountains creates a Tunnel zone in that hex.

I have a suggestion for Fabrication:
The max bonus to any stat that an item can give is +10 (may drop if this is too high). Two items cannot give the same unit a bonus in the same stat at the same time. A unit may have up to 5 items, but can only use 1 Weapon-Type item at a time and only 1 Armor-Type item at a time. (Weapon-Type items either increase combat or defense--like a Shield. Armor-Type items increase Defense or Hits.)

Also, other items can grant Specials (like the Tesla bracer or Ansom's carpet or the Jetpack.) Simple Specials can be granted by an item made by any Fabricator, for 6 turns of work (equivalent to 2 stat points). Complex Specials can be granted by an item made by a Limited Dollamancy unit or a Dollamancer, for (Point Cost of Special*9) turns of work (equivalent to 9 or 12 stat points).* High-Level Specials can be granted by an item made by a Dollamancer, for (Point Cost of Special*12) turns of work (equivalent to 16 or 24 stat points).*

*Note that since Limited Dollamancers and Dollamancers work from Juice, these costs are deceptive--the actual cost in time is much lower, especially for a full Dollamancer. A Limited Dollamancer can do 3 turns of work in 1, a Dollamancer can do 3 turns of work per level up to level 5.

A further penalty to items granting Specials is that only one unit per side can use them. When the item is being designed, the player must state the unit on their side that will use the item, and no other unit on the player's side can use the item while the original unit is alive. When an enemy side claims the items, the only unit on that side that can use the item is the unit that claimed it.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  Nihila on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:12 pm

Looking back on my proposed rule system, I'd also propose that each item have a maintenance cost of (5*Point Cost)--an item giving Ranged has maintenance of 10, an item increasing Combat by 10 has a maintenance of 50.
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:16 pm

Mmmm, I dunno, that doesn't seem to follow canon, but it would give a reason for a side not to go crazy with the accessories...

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:00 am

I like the fabrication limits, but I think only casters should be able to put specials in items. I also think we can limit the bonus dependant on the level of the fabricator.
Ex:
fabricator special ---- max +5
Limited casters (units with caster special) ----- max +10 simple specials note: limited casting is a higher special than fabrication, so therefore should be able to fabricate better
casters ----- max +15 simple specials
Lvl 5+ caster ----- max +25 complex specials
Lvl 10+ caster ------ max +30 any special
I think this is cannon, we've seen bogroll make a suit of armour, but nothing with magic qualities like Ace and Cubbins.

Tunneling suggestion:
Tunnels may be made in the same way as roads, but require a burrower in the stack to dig for the warlord. Tunnels can be traveled by any non heavy unit, but do not gain a movment bonus like a road and must be entered through an entry point. Any entry point can either be a mine or dungeon of a city. Only burowing units can leave a tunnel at any point, regular units can only exit a tunnel at an entry point. If a city does not have a dungeon, then burrowers cannot attack the city from under ground.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 am

They would still be able to enter a city from underground, they'd just have to breach into the garrison... which is almost always a bad idea.

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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  HerbieRai on Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:44 am

The problem with that is ambush. When a burrower attacks an above ground unit from below, it is counted as an ambush (from when Siezemore ambushed command outside gobwin knob). Doing this in a city means the burrowers not only get past the defense bonus, but also do extra ambush damage against the garrison (you gotta attack the garrison sometime). This seems a bit powerful for the burrow upgrade. An explaination for not being able to attack is pavement.

Is there a way to destroy an improvment?

HerbieRai
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Re: Rules Suggestions

Post  SirShadow on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:18 am

Mmm, you should be able to raze improvements like you do a city, and I already gave two options for destroying tunnels. Plus, don't all cities have a dungeon space? Air units can get past defenses as well, unless you have air defenses. So cities will just have to invest in dungeon or tunnel defenses.

pavement wouldn't make them unable to attack, it'd just act as walls that have to be breached.

I'd suggest making burrowers move at half speed when burrowing to reflect how long it took the marbits to reach gobwin knob and balance it out a bit.

SirShadow
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Re: Rules Suggestions

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